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#41
Denaratuck

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Ok I think a lot of people have a misconception on the guide writing process over at .com. Anyone can write a guide if they want to (I've written 10 so far) and on top of that if people know of a better way to get a trophy they post it in the comments and then the guide writer can add it to the guide (hopefully giving credit to the person for the tip).

Guides are used by people who want that roadmap and for those who need help with one trophy they can just look at the guide for that one trophy.

I don't know why people think guides are such a bad thing, the problem with the tip way is it might be months before a tip is in place for a trophy as opposed to the first 2 weeks the game is out.

I think the people on this site need to get off their elitist soapboxes and realize that the reason a lot of people went back to .com after the site was restored is because it is a really good site with an awesome community, The week or so I spent here was filled with dead boards that were only brought to life when someone wanted to bitch about how much better it is here than over at .com.

I use this site because I like the trophy tracking but you guys are the community here and if you don't stop acting like jerks then you will stay the community here.

Just my 2 cents.


I couldn't have said it better myself. Sly has done an awesome job with this site so far and I know it will only continue to get better in the future which is why I donated money back during the beta and will continue to donate in the future. However, this whole argument about weather or not to include guides, tips, or whatever you want to call it has gotten out of hand in my opinion. Some people are in favor of guides while other people want to use a different approach to separate themselves from the other sites. To this I have to say what's wrong with using both methods?

For myself, I personally read a trophy guide or road map because I'm interested in learning about any miss-able trophies and the best way to go about earning them. However, not everyone is like this nor do they care about trophies. However, you if you want to attract all kinds of gamers to this site you have to cater to specific groups. One of which are the trophy hunters. There is a reason why they have been using all of the other sites for so long.

As for leaving .com because of all the drama. One look at this thread shows me that this site doesn't appear to be any different, and in fact I could really care less about the drama no matter what site I'm on. If it doesn't involve myself, then I simply ignore it. Like Dr_Mayus, I went back and registered once again on .com because I've got a lot of good friends on their and like the majority of the community. I'm not going to abandon one site just for a few differences or vice versa.

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#42
Elliot - Pie

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Ok I think a lot of people have a misconception on the guide writing process over at .com. Anyone can write a guide if they want to (I've written 10 so far) and on top of that if people know of a better way to get a trophy they post it in the comments and then the guide writer can add it to the guide (hopefully giving credit to the person for the tip).

Guides are used by people who want that roadmap and for those who need help with one trophy they can just look at the guide for that one trophy.

I don't know why people think guides are such a bad thing, the problem with the tip way is it might be months before a tip is in place for a trophy as opposed to the first 2 weeks the game is out.

I think the people on this site need to get off their elitist soapboxes and realize that the reason a lot of people went back to .com after the site was restored is because it is a really good site with an awesome community, The week or so I spent here was filled with dead boards that were only brought to life when someone wanted to bitch about how much better it is here than over at .com.

I use this site because I like the trophy tracking but you guys are the community here and if you don't stop acting like jerks then you will stay the community here.

Just my 2 cents.


I've written more guides than that in the past for that place, though most / all of them have, to my knowledge, now been challenged, which I'm glad about because I want my content off that site as fast as possible.

The guide process on .com is horrible, it's all down to the discretion of an arbitrary "team" made up of people who do hours of work without getting paid any of the advertising / donation money the admins get, it's a horrible deal, and all they get in return is to provide the admins with money. It's like some sort of willing slavery, it's horrible.

.com's community is full of idiots, there have been no good threads in "New Posts" for about six months, and the only "good" thing about it was obliterated when Sly left. The admins are selfish and don't do anything to help the community, only help line their own pockets, and two of them I know to be unpleasant people that I would wish to wash my hands of. If you love .com so much, go there and pay the admins their advertising money for your subpar community full of morons.

We don't act like jerks here, we have discussions about what we feel would be best for this site, because we actually do care.

On the subject of which, I think the tips guide page is as "guide"-like as it needs to get - the best tips, all on one page. Seems like the most fair way to put a guide together. Roadmaps aren't really needed, in my opinion, they should be included in the tips, like "try for x whilst you get this", that's how I've been doing it.

#43
Muff

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Ok I think a lot of people have a misconception on the guide writing process over at .com. Anyone can write a guide if they want to (I've written 10 so far) and on top of that if people know of a better way to get a trophy they post it in the comments and then the guide writer can add it to the guide (hopefully giving credit to the person for the tip).

Guides are used by people who want that roadmap and for those who need help with one trophy they can just look at the guide for that one trophy.

I don't know why people think guides are such a bad thing, the problem with the tip way is it might be months before a tip is in place for a trophy as opposed to the first 2 weeks the game is out.

I think the people on this site need to get off their elitist soapboxes and realize that the reason a lot of people went back to .com after the site was restored is because it is a really good site with an awesome community, The week or so I spent here was filled with dead boards that were only brought to life when someone wanted to bitch about how much better it is here than over at .com.

I use this site because I like the trophy tracking but you guys are the community here and if you don't stop acting like jerks then you will stay the community here.

Just my 2 cents.


(just a note: if i seem very cynical or anything, its cuz its really early, and i usually treat what i think is unnecessarily negative talk with cynicism, so sorry now..moving on...)

for the guides, i can list reasons...here are a few: ONE person edits it, if they are busy, not there, or just a lazy asshole, they arent going to edit it, what is there when its released it what you get, also that with the choosing, if they vote, there is always that possibility someone couldve done better...so they challenge it, the issue THERE is that that gets rid of the original guide, so if some ass challenges a great guide, its gone, and now some half-assed guide will replace it. i could probably go on for a few more minutes, but i wont

with the tips, anyone can submit it, at any time. Sure, some wont be immediate, but will you die or not play the game if a tip isnt up there? no, you wont, so there is no point. I would RATHER have it take 2 months, because to be honest, i did a guide that i didnt intend to. i had to run out, buy this game earlier than i planned, and i had to rush through it and get the plat in 2 weeks, and write a guide that i felt was highly satisfactory. I had no time to enjoy the game, it was all work work work, and im sure i missed some stuff. 2 months later, i could get floods of PMs telling me easier ways to earn this, another area to earn that....who cares how long it takes.

ah, the community. Yes, ill admit i am using this site moreso because im no longer a fan of .com, ill also admit i re-registered on .com (for stupid purposes that didnt last, now i just have a useless account there)...but what many people DONT realise, is exactly what is going on. Spend a week or more just sitting in the ChatBox talking to people, and you will see that there is about as much drama on the as 4 years in highschool. You don't realise just what goes on in that "awesome" community, the disdain for most of the staff, if not all, the intense hatred in the Sig shops, the trolling, all of it....but i must say, ignorance is bliss, and from this post, i think that is highly accurate.

onto the community of this site....you spent, a singular week here, and this site isnt even a year old yet. what, do you want 5 threads in every forum and subforum within a few months, and most, if not all, active? no, not happening. IF you really wanted to help, try posting in the forums more, maybe. if you told firends posted, and HELPED the community to get up and running, it would make things easier, instead of looking down on it like we are the horrible ones. for the final comment of us being jerks....its sad that i have to say this, but all the posts before this, aren't the arguing you think. what that is, is when you start a conversation, and it happens to hit politics, then you and the other person or people start to argue your opinions...we all do it, dont treat it like its uncivilized, its common nature. to be 100% fully honest, you saying we are jerks and that we think we are too good for .com makes you not only a jerk, but a bit of an ass also. I'm willing to bet almost every member on here re-registered...hell, EVEN SLY RE-REGISTERED. this community doesnt think they are too good for .com....but it seems you think that you are too good for here.

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#44
Dreakon139

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as for the adaptation thing....you do realise that unless we mimic all the sites users are coming from, there WILL be some adapting to this site. Its nice that when i come here, it is different from those other sites, because im on this site for a reason, not any other site. THAT is what i am getting at: this is PSNP, not ps3trophies.com, ps3trophies.org, yourgamercards,net, squaretrianglecircle.com.....so lets avoid turning every aspect into these sites. nothing more, nothing less.

Maybe having more fleshed out guides (or guides in general) isn't merely an attempt to become more like those sites, but rather just to offer more to the users? I would hate to see this utter disdain of becoming like the other sites cause people (including myself) to look elsewhere because I want my hand held a little bit, or because I'm tired of missing trophies, or because a small character limit makes the trophy tips lack the kind of detail it might need.

Sometimes good features are just good features and good ideas, and not solely an attempt to be like other sites. They are just features that people want, because they are helpful, not because they get frightened they don't see 'ps3trophies.org' in their address bar. You talk about being innovative and thinking outside of the box, but I haven't heard a viable alternative out of you yet outside of "people can just suck it up" when it comes to not having certain content.

I've offered up the idea in past threads (or maybe even this one), instead of having a traditional roadmap where one person spells everything out for everyone, maybe something could be logic'd out that compared the order in which people with a platinum obtained all of the trophies and the most common "path" or "paths" (so to speak) could be displayed in a interesting format for people... like a timeline, as opposed to the traditional "list of trophies". It's not the same old, same old and could provide some interesting information for people who aren't sure where to start towards a platinum or what order certain trophies need to be obtained. It's probably not the best idea, and might not even be possible, but it's something.

#45
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If I might just jump in here:

I think the .com system of guides is broken. I, as those who have seen my meltdown on the chatbox here will know, detest the queue system and the general idea of an "arbitrary staff", to use Pie's phrase, determining who gets the right to cover guides. It keeps the same people in line for every game worth writing for and leaves the crappy games to the commoners.

However, I think tossing out the idea of dedicated guides is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Yes, guides at .com and other sites have their problems, but they also give users a chance to really "cover" a game fully. You have people who are passionate about the game giving their all to every trophy, and that's something I don't think trophy tips can equal. I think there's a good compromise between the "many writers" method of tips and the "one dedicated writer" of guides. Here's my idea for an innovative system which could do both:

- Guides -
- Have a small Trophy Guide Team (2 or 3 members made up of good guide writers from several sites)
- This team will be responsible for checking post quality of those who want to write guides.
- When someone wants to call a guide, the TGT member checks the person's writing ability through their post history and their submitted Trophy Tips
- If there's no concern about their ability, the guide is given to them
- Guides are called on a first come, first serve basis (giving the person most dedicated to the game the chance)
- Guides can be accessed by the Trophy Guide button on the page.

- Tips -
- Tips can be written by anyone, and are viewable as part of the Trophy List, not as a guide
- Highest rated tips are displayed, on the trophy list, all tips are displayed on the trophy's page (as is now)
- Character count is kept at 500 or so, as the focus is on players giving concise tips, and not detailed explanations (this is reserved for the guide)

In this system, I think you'd see the best of both worlds. The guides would cover games completely, a one-stop-shop of sorts. The tips would cover specific hints for specific trophies, a place for people to go when they get stuck on a certain trophy and want more information / strategies. The tip page would also be a good place for people to go to check trophy requirements before they buy/start a game, so someone who wants a 100% profile would know to avoid Wipeout. :awesome:

Now, this isn't a complete idea. Even if this plan is acceptable, guides would need to be formatted, there would need to be a plan for when games are callable, etc. But I think it's a good starting ground for compromise.

Ultimately, I want to write guides. I want to put my all into a game, and make the best page for trophy help on the entire interwebs. Tips are a cool idea, but there's not the same amount of dedication. And if there's no guides, as nice and neat as this site is, I think I'll stick with ,com and their TGT oligarchy.

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#46
Muff

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well, if given my opinion and backed it up with all that i feel i need to, so i digress here...but i like these past 2 posts, because i read through them (entirely, or close enough), and i have to say, the ideas in these i like

I've offered up the idea in past threads (or maybe even this one), instead of having a traditional roadmap where one person spells everything out for everyone, maybe something could be logic'd out that compared the order in which people with a platinum obtained all of the trophies and the most common "path" or "paths" (so to speak) could be displayed in a interesting format for people... like a timeline, as opposed to the traditional "list of trophies". It's not the same old, same old and could provide some interesting information for people who aren't sure where to start towards a platinum or what order certain trophies need to be obtained. It's probably not the best idea, and might not even be possible, but it's something.


i like this, because while roadmaps are un-needed....this is a variation, and enough of one to be something unique, moreso tailored to fit the set-up of giving help with trophies, than trying to make the trophy tips/guides/whatever fit the features

If I might just jump in here:

I think the .com system of guides is broken. I, as those who have seen my meltdown on the chatbox here will know, detest the queue system and the general idea of an "arbitrary staff", to use Pie's phrase, determining who gets the right to cover guides. It keeps the same people in line for every game worth writing for and leaves the crappy games to the commoners.

However, I think tossing out the idea of dedicated guides is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Yes, guides at .com and other sites have their problems, but they also give users a chance to really "cover" a game fully. You have people who are passionate about the game giving their all to every trophy, and that's something I don't think trophy tips can equal. I think there's a good compromise between the "many writers" method of tips and the "one dedicated writer" of guides. Here's my idea for an innovative system which could do both:

- Guides -
- Have a small Trophy Guide Team (2 or 3 members made up of good guide writers from several sites)
- This team will be responsible for checking post quality of those who want to write guides.
- When someone wants to call a guide, the TGT member checks the person's writing ability through their post history and their submitted Trophy Tips
- If there's no concern about their ability, the guide is given to them
- Guides are called on a first come, first serve basis (giving the person most dedicated to the game the chance)
- Guides can be accessed by the Trophy Guide button on the page.

- Tips -
- Tips can be written by anyone, and are viewable as part of the Trophy List, not as a guide
- Highest rated tips are displayed, on the trophy list, all tips are displayed on the trophy's page (as is now)
- Character count is kept at 500 or so, as the focus is on players giving concise tips, and not detailed explanations (this is reserved for the guide)

In this system, I think you'd see the best of both worlds. The guides would cover games completely, a one-stop-shop of sorts. The tips would cover specific hints for specific trophies, a place for people to go when they get stuck on a certain trophy and want more information / strategies. The tip page would also be a good place for people to go to check trophy requirements before they buy/start a game, so someone who wants a 100% profile would know to avoid Wipeout. :awesome:

Now, this isn't a complete idea. Even if this plan is acceptable, guides would need to be formatted, there would need to be a plan for when games are callable, etc. But I think it's a good starting ground for compromise.

Ultimately, I want to write guides. I want to put my all into a game, and make the best page for trophy help on the entire interwebs. Tips are a cool idea, but there's not the same amount of dedication. And if there's no guides, as nice and neat as this site is, I think I'll stick with ,com and their TGT oligarchy.



i really like this idea: having both an exclusive guide for those who want it enough...but still having tips, and keeping the two decently seperate from one another. the TGT thing is kinda eh, the less staff the better, but looking at ti, they might be needed...just not a lot, 2-3 is a perfect amount, and sly himself has to hand-pick them, so its not just random people

Yes, i am opposed to guides and all this....but i do like these ideas, even if they do involve guides, for the reason that they mostly either are adding new idea/new variations to old things, which is very nice....and as ive said, i love Blue's idea of having both, but keeping them seperate, to cater to both...so everyone is appeased in this way.

...and for why i haven't contributed, to be honest i do like how the tips are now, not sure what else they could possibly use, but i will start thinking up ideas and posting :)

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#47
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It would be a waste to have both and we're not doing guides like other sites. Anyway, the site's focus isn't even about trophy guides.

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#48
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i really like this idea: having both an exclusive guide for those who want it enough...but still having tips, and keeping the two decently seperate from one another. the TGT thing is kinda eh, the less staff the better, but looking at ti, they might be needed...just not a lot, 2-3 is a perfect amount, and sly himself has to hand-pick them, so its not just random people

Yes, i am opposed to guides and all this....but i do like these ideas, even if they do involve guides, for the reason that they mostly either are adding new idea/new variations to old things, which is very nice....and as ive said, i love Blue's idea of having both, but keeping them seperate, to cater to both...so everyone is appeased in this way.

...and for why i haven't contributed, to be honest i do like how the tips are now, not sure what else they could possibly use, but i will start thinking up ideas and posting :)

This shocks me that you like his idea, considering how opposed you seem to be towards the idea of having a tip-like system for roadmaps and fully fleshed-out guides because it's too much like other sites. His idea is pretty much taking the system at .com entirely (with a few tweaks) and using it here...

#49
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It would be a waste to have both and we're not doing guides like other sites. Anyway, the site's focus isn't even about trophy guides.


I explained already how guides have their own purpose, and tips would too.

Ultimately, it's obviously your site to manage as you choose. But every site has a key feature that makes it worth coming back to, and in every major trophy site, that feature has been in-depth guides and the fun of writing them. I don't think PSNP as it stands will have any feature worthy of extended exploration, and so I think by choosing to disallow guides entirely, you condemn PSNP to a "goof-around" site, something where I can click around the trophies while bored, but which never gives me any reason to stick around.

I really don't see why you're so opposed to guides. At the very least, I see no reason why there shouldn't be an unofficial section of the forums where people like myself could take our wish for full-on guides.

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#50
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I explained already how guides have their own purpose, and tips would too.

Ultimately, it's obviously your site to manage as you choose. But every site has a key feature that makes it worth coming back to, and in every major trophy site, that feature has been in-depth guides and the fun of writing them. I don't think PSNP as it stands will have any feature worthy of extended exploration, and so I think by choosing to disallow guides entirely, you condemn PSNP to a "goof-around" site, something where I can click around the trophies while bored, but which never gives me any reason to stick around.

I really don't see why you're so opposed to guides. At the very least, I see no reason why there shouldn't be an unofficial section of the forums where people like myself could take our wish for full-on guides.


It's the community and discussion which will make people stick around, it needs time to mature and grow.
I'm not opposed to guides, that's why I added tips and the trophy guide page, I just don't like how other sites do it.

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#51
Dreakon139

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I explained already how guides have their own purpose, and tips would too.

Ultimately, it's obviously your site to manage as you choose. But every site has a key feature that makes it worth coming back to, and in every major trophy site, that feature has been in-depth guides and the fun of writing them. I don't think PSNP as it stands will have any feature worthy of extended exploration, and so I think by choosing to disallow guides entirely, you condemn PSNP to a "goof-around" site, something where I can click around the trophies while bored, but which never gives me any reason to stick around.

I really don't see why you're so opposed to guides. At the very least, I see no reason why there shouldn't be an unofficial section of the forums where people like myself could take our wish for full-on guides.

I certainly don't feel the same way about full-on trophy guides as you do. The majority don't stick around .com for the fun of writing guides, I'd say those that actually write guides are a much smaller portion of the community than those that use them.

With that in mind, why not take your talents to the tips section of the site and write up all the tips for a game you enjoy? The 1000 character limit is a little... limiting... ill give you that but most of the guides I've seen don't necessarily explain things in outrageous amounts of detail anyways. I've written a number of tips and all of them I've found ways to keep them under 1000 characters. Some tips might be tougher, I understand, which is why I'm a proponent of upping it to 1500 or 2000. Traditional guides also often rely on YouTube videos as well, just as the tips will need to.

I think some people are more interested in "making a name for themselves" as a trophy guide writer and "owning" a game's trophy guide, moreso than actually helping people (though it's a fortunate side effect). The practically anonymous tips don't carry the same clout as a "official" trophy guide.

#52
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Dreakon, yes. That is the reason guide writers (including myself) like writing guides. Desire for power, as silly as calling guide authorship "power" may seem, is human nature. That less-than-selfless motivation doesn't reduce the fact that under guides, people produce the most dedicated coverage - because they know the better their guide is, the more attention they'll get.

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#53
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I think that's exactly the reason Sly probably wants to stick with the trophy tip style. I'd personally rather have the site full of tips of varying quality with the most correct/well-written ones that get bumped to the top, then a bunch of trophy guides written by individuals that did it more for the "power" than love of the game and helping others.

I've come across a number of guides that had flat-out wrong information in them, and there are plenty of guides that don't go into an appropriate amount of detail considering the opportunity to do so. Possibly a result of rushing to be the first to write a guide. So I disagree that the motivation of guide ownership and attention will naturally lead to higher quality, and I think the tips can/will prove that over time.


EDIT: Going back on topic a bit, since the guides are automated to use the highest rated tip... maybe it would be possible to use the top two rated tips? Or only use the top two rated tips if both of them have at least one "Works" votes. While they may often tell the same story, for many trophies there are multiple ways to go about it, multiple "best spots" to farm it, and in some cases, details that one person may leave out (like whether or not a trophy is miss-able, etc) despite the tip being otherwise well received. Seperate them by simple 'Tip 1:' and 'Tip 2:' indicators.

If we're sticking to the 1000 characters thing, might as well pack as much information into the tip guides as possible... right? Just a thought. :)

#54
steelsammy

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I think that's exactly the reason Sly probably wants to stick with the trophy tip style. I'd personally rather have the site full of tips of varying quality with the most correct/well-written ones that get bumped to the top, then a bunch of trophy guides written by individuals that did it more for the "power" than love of the game and helping others.

I've come across a number of guides that had flat-out wrong information in them, and there are plenty of guides that don't go into an appropriate amount of detail considering the opportunity to do so. Possibly a result of rushing to be the first to write a guide. So I disagree that the motivation of guide ownership and attention will naturally lead to higher quality, and I think the tips can/will prove that over time.


EDIT: Going back on topic a bit, since the guides are automated to use the highest rated tip... maybe it would be possible to use the top two rated tips? Or only use the top two rated tips if both of them have at least one "Works" votes. While they may often tell the same story, for many trophies there are multiple ways to go about it, multiple "best spots" to farm it, and in some cases, details that one person may leave out (like whether or not a trophy is miss-able, etc) despite the tip being otherwise well received. Seperate them by simple 'Tip 1:' and 'Tip 2:' indicators.

If we're sticking to the 1000 characters thing, might as well pack as much information into the tip guides as possible... right? Just a thought. :)



Yeah, and the tip thing isn't going to stop me from writing one for every trophy, and calling it my guide.

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#55
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a perfect example of the fact that you can't please everyone all the time...

I love the "TIPS" idea... you can still "challenge" a tip that was written if you have a better, faster, easier way to get said trophy... I think that we are all wasting finger strokes here... a great system has been put into place and it allows everyone to be involved and it gives everyone a sense of ownership for the site... when i start to write tips i feel like im investing into a site and the more i want to see it succeed....

and you can make a "tip" as lengthy as you want really so at the root you can still have a "guide" at the end of the day...

just my thoughts on it...



Yeah, and the tip thing isn't going to stop me from writing one for every trophy, and calling it my guide.


I agree with this 100%

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#56
Piggie_Pie

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Plus... having the road map as the platinum trophy tip is a great idea...

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I <3 JRPGs


#57
redcell89

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i still don't see why we are still arguing about this.

To the general public: You want a full and thorough trophy guide? then piss off to another site, we are not keeping you here in chains you know. its the internet and you can use any site you want. Sly as founder of this site has the final word as to what system is used and he made it clear that he does not like the way other sites do the guides and so he will not have that system here and after observing for a year and a half at how the TGT over at .com manage their system, I must say for myself that i think that it is indeed an inefficient, time wasting, balls busting, unfair, shitty system.

I like the different angle sly is taking with tips, and the idea of equality of the general community when it comes to posting tips. all is equal. no one gets to wave his e-peen around and slap people in the face with it saying "hey i got such and such guide and it is better than that guide" there no over inflated egos resulting from a site trophy that pats you on the back and says "good job, kid. You wrote ## many guides" there's no time constraints. Which means anyone can submit a tip at any time at all. also the rating system is a great way to measure accuracy for trophies with several tips provided it is not abused. we all seen what people do with the rating system over at the AI section at .com, and the fact that all games are considered equal, no major and non-major horse shit. Because one game can be a major for someone but a non-major to someone else based on their gaming preference, Hell if it was my saying I'd put Ace combat up for major calling and take down MW3 to non-major calling.

All I am saying is. Don't knock it till you try it (;

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#58
Dreakon139

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Yeah, and the tip thing isn't going to stop me from writing one for every trophy, and calling it my guide.

There you go, that's perfect. There's pride to be had in having your name on the majority of the highest rated tips for any given game. The only requirement? Good, accurate, well-written tips! Shocking! :)

#59
Lil_Mermaid_Girl

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Do you think when we click on an individual trophy, like this: http://psnprofiles.c.../Hack-and-slash and the trophy has a tip, that we don't have to hit "Show Tips", but instead the tips show expanded automatically?

Oh, and BTW it's not my browser now, I updated to firefox finally. :yay:
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I'm featured on the official PS blog!!

#60
Parker

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Do you think when we click on an individual trophy, like this: http://psnprofiles.c.../Hack-and-slash and the trophy has a tip, that we don't have to hit "Show Tips", but instead the tips show expanded automatically?

Oh, and BTW it's not my browser now, I updated to firefox finally. :yay:


I believe the reason it doesn't expand automatically is to prevent spoilers, or at least I seem to recall someone saying that. :S

It would be a nice feature to be able to select if we wanted them to expand automatically or not, but in the long run it really isn't a big deal if we have to continue to select :show tips."


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